According to the Partner Website shipping has started from 10 January. SUch a shame that it is only VO launch for the Partners, rather than an EVO launch - where's Exchange 2007 guys ???

Looks like I'm going to have to join TechNet after all - ho hum !!!

Hi David,

With the Action Pack, will the addition of Vista, remove the current licencing rights to XP - I heard this on a newsgroup and would be really pleased for your learned wisdom.  Or will we have 10 licences for XP and 10 for Vista?

I really don't want to migrate everything to Vista, since a couple of our clients still use LOB apps which only work on XP and I need to be able to troubleshoot their config on our inhouse demo box?

Cheers

Andrew

Thanks David, and welcome back from the break.

I am looking forward to migrating from RC2 to the final release, but I am concerned about how I can still support the XP clients I have.

It certainly seems that those (I guess in the US) whom have got the MAPS already are saying that once the current subscription expires and is renewed there will no provision for XP, nor downgrade rights.

Eric Ligman (MSFT)

http://blogs.msdn.com/mssmallbiz/archive/2007/01/12/do-i-have-downgrade-rights-for-my-software-that-comes-in-action-pack.aspx

I agree that we dont need downgrade rights, BUT we should be able to keep a hybrid of XP/Vista machines loaded for devel/support etc.  

Surely MS need to think real world here, everyone WILL one day move to Vista - and I will help push my customers and learners in this direction - however this needs to be a measured approach, and I heartily reconmend a TRANSITION period being applied - otherwise the pain is going to be just too great for many.

Even a clause in the EULA allowing dual use until the SP1 is released will be better than nothing, and really after the biggest software development project on the Earth and a guarranteed money spinner for MS, what is a bit more time?

Regards

Andrew

Hi David,

A transition period would be ideal.  It will hurt the most if MAPS is renewable for some customers in February of course - I think mine is May. Since then we have less than a year I guess.  Lets hope there is an addendum to the EULA to allow for this, but I am sure the legal team will take a while to put it into action.

Fingers crossed, and many thanks for your efforts.

Andrew

So let me get this straight, the shipment has been delayed because of the OPK which isn't included in the shipment?

The most disappointing element of the Jan pack is the fact that the Vista software is the upgrade only version and not the full product.  Hands up those of us who would rather do a clean install as opposed to an upgrade when given the choice!

I've kept up to date the arguments from MS re need to cut down on piracy and prevent unscrupulous MAPS subscribers flogging discs on ebay (which I totally support MS for clamping down on), but providing only an upgrade version for the majority of honest subscribers smacks of a "using a sledgehammer to crack a nut" approach.

Now that each action pack install of Vista has its own product key, surely it would not be too much of a stretch for MS to tie in the product keys to MAPS ID numbers and hold that info for future reference. With this info MS should be able to track down individuals\companies tempted to illegally use\sell the software and deal with them accordingly.

Here's hoping MS has a rethink and reinstates the full Vista product version in April.  The argument of which version to provide I'll leave for another time!

Regards

Alastair

I'm confused by this "upgrade" thing with MAPS OS licensing. Our MAPS subscription (recently renewed) gave us 10 XP licences and 10 XP 64-bit licenses. Nobody has told us that these are now invalid. Does the switch from "full" to "upgrade" version have any impact on existing MAPS customers when they renew, or is it only brand new subscribers that are affected?

And, if we *are* affected (ie our full XP licenses are no longer legal) what's the recommended course of action?

- Roddy

I have my action pack now.

The Vista is upgrade only (10 licenses). But I did manage to get a clean install as I had XP Pro 64bit and the DVD is 32bit only.. So thats ok.

I only have one license for the Office 2007, or ateast only 1 key, I can't find any info as to whether it can be used more than once..

Hi David,

Just installing the upgrade now, and I type as I wait for my other work machine to upgrade.

Just some observations:-

-You need to boot to XP to fire up the upgrade

just having the DVD in a boot time and asking to boot from DVD does not work, and XP is loaded

-Upon choosing the upgrade, the option to upgrade (with all settings intact) is there and so is the advanced install option)

-I chose the advanced option as I wanted to re-partition the disk.  At this point there was no next, and the install advised that I should reboot with the DVD in the drive and select clean install.

-I duly rebooted, clicked any key to boot from DVD, and after a pause XP booted again.

It looks like the version we have been given is a pure upgrade and does not allow a clean install even after verifying the XP installation is present.

Perhaps someone else can verify this?

I don't really mind, since I know Vista will let me shrink the disk once installed and I hope to repartition the drive after the install :-)  (cool feature - but not sure why it seems restricted to 50% of the drive?)

Ok, all completed now, took about 50 mins.  No sign of the windows.old folder...

So, fairly painless really.

regards

Andrew

Does anyone know:

1.) If you upgrade Vista Business to Ultimate, does that leave you with 9 XP / Vista licences?

2.) Is the upgraded ($139.00) Ultimate version still subject to the subscription nature of the MSAP?

3.) Will the MSAP licenses (in general) ever really be "revoked" if you cancel your subscription?

Thanks,

Dan

It appears that MAPS team have confused everyone with the release of this Action Pack!

Windows Vista Business upgrade - I've got to jump through how many hoops to do clean install! I don't want remnants of XP screwing up my shiny new Vista install.

There was no roar because the VAST MAJORITY of Action Pack subscribers didn't know what versions of Office and Vista were being sent out until it was too late. In fact, many people didn't know until the Action Packs started to hit the doorstep! Hey we didn't know that a clean install would require a qualifying OS to be actually installed when the past scheme has only required a qualify OS CDROM be inserted at the requested moment.

Who exactly were the informed!?! Instead of asking for objectors only, it is essential to ensure polls are done that bring back acceptance messages as well as objections. Only then will you truly understand if the message is hitting the majority and you'll get the feedback you need to make an informed decision.

Dave, the backlash is now mounting as people get their Action Pack and realise the implications!

Hi David,

Following your advice it seems I was too eager to give up during the upgrade last night and did not select the partition to install the clean install onto... however this was not really what I wanted - I wanted to re-partition the disk first and then install.

I note that when only one partition is in the PC that this is not highlighted by default and therefore the next button is not selectable.  However on a multi partition machine, the Partition 1 is highlighted and the next option is available.

However my issue last night, and again now is the original point below:-

-I chose the advanced option as I wanted to re-partition the disk.  SNIP The install advised that I should reboot with the DVD in the drive and select clean install.

The prompt at the bottom of the install screen imdicates "to make changes to partitions, restart Windows from the installation disc."  

(a cancel or a reboot option here could be useful?)

The help screen here, also implies that you can choose a custom install to give a clean copy of Windows on a computer that does not have an O/S.  This I believed could not happen with an upgrade?

Ok, so I selected the partition, and then X'd the install, and rebooted.  Hit the key to boot from the DVD and, stood back in awe....it booted to the Vista install.  Selected the custom (since Upgrade was greyed out) and proceeded to repartition & format the disk, etc.  Proceeded all very sweet.

Just for a test, I cancelled the install after 10% and restarted.  Sure enough the drive had been formated and failed to load.  Insert the DVD and boot to the Vista installation, and hey presto.....clean install (from a PC that had just been completely formatted and rebooted.  The install was a lot quicker since there is no need to copy the whole Vista image to the HDD during install - it will simply expand the files needed direct to the shiny new hard drive.  

The above is just my observations, maybe there are still more mysteries to be uncovered?

Whatever.  I have been left with a mixed opinion by the process - "Strange".  Sure I learnt a hell of a lot - and I can pass this on during events and lessons.  I got there in the end, but I need to check why an upgrade DVD allowed me to format the HDD - since surely Vista has no way to verify the existence of the previous install, which defeats the objective of an upgrade :-)

Sorry David, but I think we have found some more questions for you to email the mothership with :-)

Andrew

I also HATE the thought of not being able to perform a fresh install.  Requiring a previous version CD is one thing, but having to install that first is another.

And it's not just the inconvenience of it - Windows has always worked best when installed clean and not over top an older version.

The last thing Microsoft should want is to taint our Vista experiences by forcing us to do a dirty install over XP.

David

The issue from my point of view is not that I'm able to do a clean Vista upgrade\install from the MAPs media, it's the ability to do a clean install without having:

a) the need for an OS to be previously installed on the disk! and

b) bloatware from a previous install "saved" in the new OS install.

The MAPs guys and galls need to realise that some of us do actually upgrade our hard disks now and again - some of us may even build a clean machine from scratch for internal\demo use :-0

Regards

Alastair

I'm afraid I shall stoke the clean install fire a little more.  I found the 'clean install' advnaced option to only be told none of the 3 partitions had enough free space and that I needed to boot the DVD to repartition.  On booting the DVD and entering the MAPS key I'm informed installation must take place in windows.  This leaves me no option but to reinstall XP before upgrading to Vista - fairly time consuming.  I have to say only getting an upgrade version is one disappoinment but then not having the ability install to a blank hard drive is another.  Do retial versions do the same?

Hi,

I just found this:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5932

Looks like this will solve everyones problem!

Sheldon

I completely agree that what MS did here is asinine.  How many IT people (Read -  Action Pack Subscribers) have EVER done a Windows "Upgrade" (can you say, Sloppy? Dirty? Messy?)?  I know that I never have since using 3.1!  And I frequently wipe the partitions when I reinstall in case I want to do something new with multiple partitions.  Well, THAT option is now off the table without jumping through meaningless hoops!  I was so frustrated when trying to install Vista on my laptop where I had 2 partitions and needed to change the sizes for the install (Others have already described the endless loop of “Start install from existing Windows, Oh, you want to change partitions, boot from the DVD…” Boot from the DVD “Oh, you want to use this upgrade version, start the install from the existing install”…ARRGH!).  And what if I build a new machine and want to test on it (one of the purposes of subscribing to the Action Pack!!), well, I cannot do that now unless I install XP first and then UPGRADE.

Sorry, this was a stupid idea on the part of the MAPS team and I feel that they should immediately issue Full version license keys to AP subscribers.

I don't know about anyone else, but the first I heard about the contents of the Jan update, it said NOTHING about an upgrade version.  Then when I checked the update contents on the site a couple of weeks ago, it now says Upgrade version, which it NEVER said before.

Sorry to rant, but this is really aggravating.

Steve

I have just gone through setting up a partition, getting it working nicely then found myself in reduced functionality mode unable to activate using the action pack keys.  I called up and explained the situation and they said speak to the action pack people.  

I am so pissed at being given these upgrades and not having any capability to enter previous xp license keys or ANY other method to show eligibility to the upgrade.  As far as I am concerned, I am NOT renewing my action pack, and I will do what my customers are doing and moving to Mac.  I knew that windows would start being the monopolistic pain in the ass for all their paying customers and now that time has come... I am going to the apple store tomorrow and buying my team all macs.  

This does devalue the MAPS pack to the point of being almost useless - certainly from a desktop point of view.

The additional time and effort of doing 2 OS installs rather than one has a direct knock on effect in terms of costs. My guys have to spend an extra 60-90 minutes installing XP on test machines, before doing the Vista install - unless we now use a dodgy copy of XP cloned quickly onto the workstation in order to get Vista up and running.

MAPS was great - I'm not so sure that I will be renewing next year if this trend of greatly reduced value continues.

David, thanks for the personal comment, its really appreciated...

I was quite hot headed yesterday after wasting so much work time..  

just an update.. I spoke to the acion pack people... They have confirmed that you can no longer use any clean install method(even the one documented here)  The action pack people confirm that the ONLY method now is to install xp and then upgrade.  The message has now been updated to "this key can only be used for an upgrade and not for a clean install"

I have googled all over the internet, and I am still looking for the "hooray we got  upgrade cds!" I guess they are just underpresented here.  This is the primary problem with monopolistic companies sooner or later the customer is considered to be disposable.  I agree with you that the heart is in the right place.. firmly in Ms back pocket.    

I got it all working!  I can still dual boot my XP which is on a separate partition and a separate hard drive.  I love the new sleep mode!  No more waiting for your PC to boot up!

The Action Pack is a fanatastic value!  I have just two questions.  I got a brochure that said we could upgrade our Vista business license to VistaUltimate for $139.95.  I am assuming this means $139.95 for all ten licenses.  Hopefully I am correct.  I just bought the upgrade.  They mention you need a Windows Anytime Upgrade DVD.  Do we haveto buy this or is it already on the DVD we received.

Thanks so much David!

Sheldon

I'm a current MSAPS and I'm not at all happy about the fact I have to install two OSes to get the use of one.  IT Admins are already strapped for time and I don't believe we should be saddled with the extra steps required to do a proper (clean) install of Vista Business.  MS NEEDS to promote availability to implementers to stay competitive in the marketplace.  The MSAPS is a great deal but to provide only the upgrade option on such an important piece of the MS puzzle is a mistake.  I already run an alternate OS for home use and I can tell you the competition exists.  They need to provide those of us that are certified in the products or subscribers with a valid copy of Vista to test and become familiar with.  After all it's this availability that provided them a firm grasps of the marketplace to begin with.  No one is going to promote a product they are not familiar with and not everyone or every organization can afford the full MSDN.

David, good point on the existence of an OS but from a deployment standpoint wouldn't only having an upgrade version hamper your ability to test deployment tools?

Hi David,

Last years action pack came with full media, so I was able to install a MAPS copy of WinXP Pro on a bare metal PC.

Would the new licensing terms allow me to upgrade this MAPS copy of WinXP to Vista, or would I be required to remove WinXP when I renew the MAPS subscription?

Sheldon, can you tell me how you managed to purchase the upgrade to Ultimate?  What is this brochure you speak of?

I check the www.WindowsAnytimeUpgrade.com/maps link every day but still not active.

I need to activate an ultimate install within 2 weeks now and am getting a bit twitchy....I know it was a risk but figured it was worth it.

Any news from anybody would be great.

rgds

R

I installed the Ultimate upgrade.  No Anytime Upgrade disk needed.  I used the Vista Business disk included in the Jan kit.  It worked fine.  It does look like you have to purchase the Ultimate upgrade for each license.

Richard,

I went to www.windowsanytimeupgrade.com/maps and it worked for me.  The brochure came in the January kit.  It was in the plastic box.  I'm in the US so maybe that's the difference!

Sheldon

I'm upset with Microsoft over the version of Vista in January's MAPS, but for a different reason.  Vista Business Edition doesn't include the Multilingual User Interface or Bitlocker whole drive encryption.  I've clients that could/would benefit from both of these very useful features, but (to my knowledge) they are only available in Vista Enterprise and Vista Ultimate.  How in the world does Microsoft expects us to sell this product if key functionality isn't even provided. Now what?

Hi,

I'm reasonably happy with the Action Pack but I'm having trouble with the Project Professional 2007.  It seems that it is an upgrade version as opposed to the rest of the office 2007 stuff that came with the action pack.  I only started my Action pack subscription in January and thus am a bit rooked in being able to go the upgrade route for project.  Any Advice?

When I access the www.WindowsAnytimeUpgrade.com/maps link, the price for upgrading from Business to Ultimate is 110GBP or 214USD, yet only 80GBP via Sony. Not sure whether the MAPS link is only for action pack upgrades but it seems a little wrong that we're not able to get upgrades at a better rate than consumers.

Can you confirm that if we update the copy of Vista Business supplied with the Action Pack whether we own it or does it require a continuing MAPS subscription?

Many thanks, Darius

Sheldon,

What procedure did you use to create your Dual Boot??

I currently have XP and RC2 dual booted but i plan on deleting RC2 and replacing it with my MAPS vista business version and my newly aquired Ultimate upgrade, but i would hate to mess up my XP drive trying to use the upgrades.

john

David:

Thank you for providing this open forum.  Like so many others, I was greatly disappointed in the January MAPS kit.  I was looking for a way to send my feedback, and since you stated this was being passed to Redmond, I thought I would post my comments here.

In the past, I considered our MAP subscription to be of great value.  However, the January installment was a huge letdown.  It is Microsoft's stated purpose that the MAP subscription is for evaluation, education, testing, and internal use of some of its products.  Since Windows has always been a large part of that, I expected to receive the tools we needed to be able to perform those activities with the various editions of Vista.

What I expected was a full version of Windows Vista with one PAK for each of Home Basic, Home Premium, and Ultimate and one PAK for ten licenses of Windows Vista Business.  Our intent was to evaluate, learn about, and test each edition to see which one best suit each class of customers.

Instead we received only an upgrade version of the Business edition; the one version we will never recommend to a customer.  Like other service providers, in the past, we tried in-place upgrades as an upgrade path for customers, only to be very disappointed with the results.  Ultimately we replaced those upgrades with clean installations to resolve problems.  Having learned our lesson, we have not performed anything but clean installations in many years, regardless of whether the media kit was an upgrade, OEM, or retail kit.

Thus, receiving only an upgrade kit that does not provide a simple method for a clean install was truly an insult.  And offering a $139/license upgrade to Vista Ultimate?  That is adding injury to insult.  Apparently the role for MAPS partners has changed from technology champion to mere revenue stream.

As a result, what do you think was the first thing we tested?  Vista's new hardware requirements?  No.  Vista's new features?  Nope.  Paul Thurrott's method for a clean install without having to boot from Windows XP.  (It works just fine.)

There are legitimate reasons for wanting/needing to do a clean install from an upgrade kit, and yet Microsoft provides no supported mechanism to do this.  It is a situation which no Microsoft customer or partner should have to endure.  It is a shame Microsoft should force the user community to such an extreme.

Now that the method has been published, Microsoft has no one to blame but itself for such shortsightedness.  In an effort to curb piracy by removing one feature, Microsoft might actually lead to the proliferation of it by causing the need for the publication of an alternate "feature".

This situation is likely to reduce revenue for both Microsoft and its partners, all because higher prices and 70% margins were not enough.  Yes, this "feature" existed in previous versions of Microsoft products, but it would likely have not gotten the publication it has had Microsoft not decided to change the status quo.

Over the last few years, I thought Microsoft might actually be changing its attitude toward customers and partners.  I even occasionally used the word "care" and Microsoft in same sentence.  It has taken just this one instance for me to see how foolish that was.  I guess nothing really has changed in Redmond.

Hi everybody,

we have the same problem with the installation of MS Project without havin an older version in Germany.

We are MS Action Pack subscriber and cannot use MS Project because the setup program cannot find any older versions.

is there any other hint than calling the support desk?

best regards from Hannover

....David Overton said:

Eddie,

yep, this is a *** up. Older partners (as in membership to AP, not age) can use their old product to enable upgrades.  I raised this with corp - the best answer I can give is to phone the support desk.  If they won't / can't help - ask to raise a complaint - feel free to mention my name if it helps.

ttfn

David

I have a new sony laptop with vista business preinstalled that I recieved yesterday.  I attempted to load Office 2007 Enterprise from my action pack dvd but it would not even begin setup, it had an "invalid file format" error.  I copied the entire DVD to the laptop and then tried to install but received the same error.  I attempted to install in XP compatibility mode but that failed as well.  Any sugestions?

George

David, I have a new Sony Laptop that came with Vista Business preinstalled yesterday.  Last night I attempted to install Office 2007 Enterprise from my action pack DVD, however I continually received “invalid file format” errors and the setup would not begin.  I copied the entire dvd to the laptop and attempted to load the program from the folder, but received the same errors.  Any suggestions?

George

I was really disappointed with the contents of the Welcome Kit in January. I recommended the subscription to a collogue only for him to find the contents are half of what they were the previous year. The kit previously contain 32 & 64 bit WinXP Pro plus Media Center which is basically the equivalent of Vista Ultimate. This new kit includes a very NICE (sarcasm there) Vista Business Edition Upgrade ONLY disk.

We all understand you can do a clean install of Vista with the upgrade disk  however, who wants to burn time installing XP Pro first! And the fact the Welcome Kit didn't include the WinXP Media was just a slap in the face. I e-mailed MAPS and received the normal cookie cutter reply e-mail. The following day I received a similar cookie cutter e-mail from management. Something about them trying to control piracy... blah blah blah...

That’s just fine and dandy until MSs start effecting the people that are trying to do things right!  I wonder if this is the very thing that encourages Piracy in the first place!  I am also attempting to comprehend MS's logic by not having the Bit Blocker feature in the Business edition! That’s where it’s needed most. Lastly, increasing the renewal fee and taking a way half the “goodies” was a even bigger mistake. I don't mind the price increase until MS started reducing the contents. Obviously this little blog shows once you start giving something to someone, you don't dare take away. Of course thats not the case with MS, they can do what ever they want. Or atleast thats the attitude I perceive.  Makes a  Microsoft guy like me want to fire up the latest Linux Distro for sure.

Now with all that said what’s MS decided to do about the enormous amount of complaints? What’s included with the April kit? If MS wants to cut cost/corners, stop sending MS subscribers all the propaganda, software, and updates we can download off the web.  Such as Virtual PC, Virtual Server 2005, Service packs, “YOU NEED TO BUY THIS” marketing material, and etc…!

Hi,

The company I work for has the Action Pack subscription and received the latest package with MS Office 2007 amongst other things. However, Sharepoint Designer (SD) does not seem to be in the package. I installed everything Office-like, but of SD I had to download a trial at the website. Whenever I try to find information on how to buy SD, I am redirected to buying the whole Office 2007 package, which we've already got! Did I miss something here? Is SD not included in some Action Packs and how can an indivicual license then be obtained!?

Kind regards,

Fedor Steeman

um with regards on how to do the clean install from the uprade CD last time i checked it was actually pretty easy.  I am not sure if it is objectionable for me to post how but if its ok I will as I tested it and it does work.

Hi David,

I'm a new AP subscriber and I think the value of this pack is amazing! I know nothing of "the good old days" with oem versions of XP. :) The point of this pack for me was to familiarize myself with the new products and procedures for migrating customers, so the upgrade CD actually makes the most sense for the Action Pack. (A better/cleaner "Upgrade" would be nice but that's not the fault of the AP team...)

Now, after all this sucking up... :) I DO have an issue with the Action Pack. Office 2007 Enterprise Edition will not run on Terminal Server. Why would we not get the ability to do this? How can we successfully demonstrate or familiarize ourselves with the value of Terminal Server without running any apps on it? Ironically it seems that I'm forced to put OpenOffice and other non-Microsoft products on it so that I can demo to customers.

Does this not seem odd?

Clay

David,

I'm trying to demo Terminal Server, not Office, and OpenOffice will suffice. I would just rather demo with a complete Microsoft Solution. I set up Terminal Server in the office and would like to demo it as a remote/road warrior solution. I cater to the heavy/civil construction industry and it's loaded with road warriors. The demo loses its effectiveness when running on a local virtual PC.

Clay

Any reason why the 64 bit version of Exchange 2007 is included in the MAPS for April 07?  I'm hoping this is a typo because MAPS does not include a 64 bit version of any server OS.  Where do we install this wonderful new Exchange or is MS planning on including Server Standard 64 bit as well?

I'm confused by this.

We are a consulting firm that runs 95% of our work & client deployments on terminal servers and citrix. In our efforts to continue to offer our clients the latest in technology - we are required to use this technology in our labs to be able to deploy, change, script etc and recommend to our clients these Microsoft programs for revenue generating business both for us and Microsoft.

We are attempting to deploy the office 2007 suite provided by MAPS only to find out it does not even work on terminal server w/o the enterprise licenses (or VLK). This is very disturbing as our sales group cannot make money if we cannot even test this on our own setups.

What a poor choice by Microsoft on this one..shooting themselves in the foot.  If we are not able to run this on a terminal server, the MAPS kit pretty must lost 1/3 its value along with Microsoft.  If we cannot test this, we cannot deploy this and 2003 will live for years more.

I hope this is an error on MAPS decision and will offer up the right key to let us get down to testing this in the thin world.  It takes us months of testing before we say it is worth reselling to client.

Hi David,

Any update on the terminal server / office 2007 situation ?

We also want to use it on our terminal server installation.

thanks maikel

Another big sigh for MAPS Office 2007 not working with Terminal Server...

For those having problems with the MS Project 2007 software being an upgrade and not a full product.

You can email the MAPS Helpdesk on:

[email protected]

They shipped us out a new CD and license code within 2 working days of me raising the query.

MAPS and Terminal Server,

I agree with the comments above regarding Office 2007 and Terminal Server, I have been pushing MS Terminal Server to all our clients since Server 2000 and Office XP (anyone remember the dreaded transform file).

We where one of the first people to get Sage Acounts running on a terminal server in the UK. It was so successful that probably 95% of our clients have a terminal server.

We have a demo terminal server setup with Sage Accounts, Office 2003 Professional and some other solutions loaded up which we allow clients to loginto to showcase the technlogy, I was in the process of setting up a new server with Office 2007 enterprise to show some clients when I came accross the error that it can not be used on a TS. I have contacted MAPS and they sugessted that I take out a msdn premium subscription to get round this problem. The only problem is that costs $10,000 so it is a no no.

Hopefully this will be rectified soon.

Derek

I wiould also like to add my vote on the disapproval of the Action Pack upgrade with regard to a clean installation.

None of my hardware will run Vista, so I got a new PC. XP will not install on it - it blue screens. I can't add devices because XP can't see the hard drives (500+750 SATA) and can't find the SATA DVD to read the CD-ROM with extra drives. All manuals are on CDs, so without a working system at hand it is impossible to find out anything. As it is the hardware I want to install I can't because there are no Vista drivers yet. I could dual boot, I assume. But I have been doing Win95+Win98+NT+2K+XP multiple boots on machines (thanks to SCSI drives) for years and wanted a clean start.

I have other reasons for wanting a clean system - the automated updates on XP have locked my out of my machine (Admin password not accepted), crashed it, and corrupted the hard disc. Each time the last files updated where the updates from Microsoft.  Having to double install Vista if this happens will add hours to the installation process. As Vista can't find drivers for most of the hardware this has to rate as the hardest install since the days of DOS3.1.  

BTW I have to post this from an NT machine, still the most stable of all the versions of Windoze, just a shame I can't install all the new hardware.

If I ordered the Action Pack over this past weekend it still won't arrive until January?  I thought this was for the updates only??  I thought they sent you quarterly updates and sent your welcome kit within 10-15 days of ordering??  What's the deal with that or does anyone know??

No, I expect it to arrive asap, but I was not sure because one of the MS Tech support people told me that MS only ships it out 4x per year and basically that you would recieve the welcome kit whenever the next quarterly update was available but I thought that was wrong.  Thanks for clearing it up and Thanks for your time.

JTV