I completly reformat and reload my system at the office every 6 months to 1 year just to get rid of all the crud that has accumlated from security updates and installations of things I decide not to use. I have been doing this with the media from our action pack. Are you saying now that I will not technically and under the terms of the license be allowed to do a clean install again. I am going to have to retain the bloat I have acumulated in my existing Windows directory? Also I have run a number of test installations and a Clean VISTA installation on the 3.4GHz systems I run takes about 20 minutes. The Windows XP upgrades have taken between 4 - 9 hours depending on I have no idea what!

You could create an image of the Vista installation using the inbuilt tools and just reimage when you need to. This takes about 10mins, on the demos I've seen.

It has to be recognised that magnetic disks are prone to failure. However the software on the PC is licensed, it has to be accepted that there is going to come a time when a bare-metal install is necessary.

Your mitigation is basically to re-install XP first then Vista. Fine but at best you just cost me an extra hour. That's assuming that the OEM even supplied recovery media, which some are not doing these days.

The bottom line is that Microsoft just made everyone's life more difficult, and that's not why we buy upgrades.

Assuming I have only the January Action pack available to me, how do I set up a Vista VM for testing using Action Pack media?

Lets face it, at £200 / year its an expensive way to have the latest O/S if your a single user like me, but look at the action pack in the way it is sold to us...to enble us to test and promote software.

Therefore if the statement "Confirmation that you should buy PCs with and OS on - naked PC installation is not a licensed option for Action Pack OSs" is fact, then each time I get a new montherboard I need a new OEM license. When I test out a dual core CPU, I need a new OEM licence etc etc. Since I am selling both desktops, laptops and servers I will need at least 10 new OEM licences a year BEORE im allowed to install the action pack.

The alternative is buy 1 desktop and 1 server OEM licence, costing around £300, but then every 3 years I can save £300 buy NOT having the action pack. (and at the end of the day I OWN the software)

hi,

I note that if you use the advanced installation option of the upgrade and re-partition the drive, and reformat using the Vista DVD, the installation completes successfully :-)

However when you try to activate Vista, it fails since it cannot find a previous version of Windows.

:-((((

Andrew

David,

My Action Pack is due for renewal at the end of January at which point my licenses for Windows XP will expire as XP is no longer included in the action pack. From what then am I supposed to upgrade? Am I supposed to complete all upgrades before 31st Jan? And what happens if I have a disk failure after 31st Jan? Am I allowed to first re-install XP from my old action pack disks even though I will no longer have a valid license for them? Or am I supposed to go out and buy copies of XP?

Hi David,

can you clarify point 3 above please, specifically 'if you previously thought you did not have to buy the OS, then this was a mis-communication from Microsoft in my opinion' ?

With the first action pack I got, I received a full version of Windows XP, not upgrade, and 2 licence keys which could be used 5 times each. Outside action pack I only have one Windows 2000 licence and one Windows 98 licence. Does point 3 mean that I should have owned an earlier version of Windows for each action pack XP licence I've used (anywhere from 5-8 pc's at any one time)

Now I have Vista upgrade do I need to own (outside action pack) a copy of Win XP/2000/whatever for each Vista licence I want to use?

As for 'Don't go doing anything rash right now.' Microsoft have put me in an impossible position, I have a couple of laptops and desktops which can only run Vista in their dreams, I can't upgrade them, yet AIUI I no longer have XP licences. If FAST swoop on me tomorrow they'll find just about every OS in here (except on the Mac) is illegal.

hi David,

Am I right to assume that with Vista the Vista DVD image is a standardised image which covers every possible type of situation (upgrade/premium/business/ultimate etc)?  From my small experiences the installation seems to rely only on the licence key to validate the features to be enabled. (if no licence key is supplied at the start of the install, the user is required to select the version "purchased" and confirm).  This is only my observation/assumption.

Last night I went through the upgrade install process, (with XP present) but chose within the upgrade to reformat the HDD and perform a bare bones install, Vista then got upset when trying to activate because it could not verify (after the reformat) that there was a qualifying product present.  Of course it did, this makes perfect sense NOW.

Since I met all legal requirements (remember the PC had XP) why could the Vista team not have exported/recorded (encrypted or otherwise) the fact (on a USB stick, the MBR or other media) that it had in fact verified that I actually had a previous qualifying version of Vista?  Then after reformat all would be ok?

This would in my opinion save a lot of the "pain" and disquiet that we currently hear about the method of upgrade currently deployed with Vista.  

Alternatively, please ask MS to issue in the next MAPS distribution a note as to the options available, ie clean/upgrade/bare-bones etc with the DVD - I think this alone would alleviate many of the problems MAPS subscribers are voicing and restore some of the broken communication lines.

Andrew

ps you are doing a great job, and we are not shooting the messenger!

> Don't go doing anything rash right now.

Me? Do something rash? Never! [Re-engages safety catch and places pistol back in desk drawer] ;-)

Hi David,

Thanks for the info and clarifications:

  2. "...It does mean that there is no need to format the hard disk - it will be a pure clean install."

IMO, it's not clean unless the disk *is* reformatted

  3. "This is NOT a change of policy - Microsoft provided OEM disks for testing, not to enable you to not buy the Windows OS ... "if you previously thought you did not have to buy the OS, then this was a mis-communication from Microsoft in my opinion"

If you can point me at any piece of information available to subscribers prior to Oct 2006 that implies that the XP OSes included with MAPS were meant to be "upgrades", i'd like to see it. And this isn't about the "OEM" disks, afaict. The restrictions on them have always been more severe, IIRC.

Here's my situation. I have several self-built systems running XP installed from  the "full" version provided with 2004 MAPS susbscription. I've just renewed, so according to the new MAPS license, I only have "upgrade" licenses. (although I have no new media or codes - only the wording on the "included software" agreement has changed. So, they *certainly* aren't legal today. So, how do I *make* them legal?  I think I have to buy a *full retail* XP home for each machine (OEM version can only legally be bough with a "full system", if I remember right). Tell me I've got this wrong...

5. "You have licenses for 10 OS -whether they are Windows XP (assuming you subscribed to the Action Pack when we shipped Windows XP) or Windows Vista"

This seems a perfectly reasonable limitation, but AFAIK it's not stated anywhere in the license, the FAQ, or anywhere else.

"I don't expect Fast to be visiting any time soon."

Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition.... ;-)

- Roddy

Thanks for the reply, David - I appreciate your help, and await your legal (b)eagles' statements with interest...

One more thing I should mention is this snippet from our MAPS renewal email:-

"Our records indicate that your Action Pack subscription is up for renewal and due to expire in 45 days. Renew NOW through this email and extend your current licenses for another year and receive four more quarterly update kits."

Now, how would YOU expect a customer to interpret the bit about "extend you current licenses"?

Regards,

- Roddy

David, whatever else comes of this thread, I'd just like to say thanks for all the effort you are putting into trying out the various permutations and getting clarifications.

David, I am also having a hard time understanding how we would have to STOP using a software license just because we renewed the action pack.  For that to work the following would have to happen in my opinion:

1. MS Would have to send us brand new discs and keys for all software every year - even if there was NO upgrade.  This is my first renewal, but every post I've read indicates that you do not get a new complete Welcome Kit every year - and why would you? It would just be a waste of resources.

2. We would have to uninstall and then reinstall all software including XP, Office, and all servers every year even if we were putting the SAME version of the software back on.  As Eric Ligman points out in his licensing video, you aren't purchasing the software, but the license.  So therefore if we were getting brand new licenses every year then even if the software was the exact same, the expiration of the keys would require an uninstall/reinstall.

3. My Action Pack expired Dec 31 and I "renewed" during December and was charged. BUT, I don't have my action pack yet.  Since the January kit will have Vista, and not XP, and my computer is running the XP Pro from last year's action pack the logic Eric Ligman is posting would mean that from Dec 31st until the time I get my Action Pack I have no legal right to use the Windows XP on my computer and would thus have to stop using my computer; or else revert my computer back to it's OEM XP Media Center if I wanted to keep using it.

I know this reiterates a lot of what others have said, but Microsoft really needs to understand the confusion that has been created.  Hopefully it's resolved before my action pack shows up.  Putting the people who sell your software and solutions for it in such a gray area legally is NOT a very good thing to do.

Yesterday I attended the Small Business Specialist event held at the offices here. I spent the day standing

After some initial disillusionment with the January Action Pack shipment, reality has set in and I've

[moderated heavly]

Isn’t the whole point of the action pack software to help oem system builders prepare to sell / support / design and build PCs? To assist in small IT companies sell M$ software? You shouldn’t need to an attorney to read these complicated agreements. If you give me ten licenses, and tell me not to sell them, I’ll use up to ten internally if I want, period.

I think all of you are missing the big picture. If you’ve been following the industry over the last five years, you should have seen a massive movement by large corporations to get into the “services” industry, e.g., best buy’s geek squad, etc.

It has been over four years since the last major release of Office or Windows and twelve years since

Hi David, thanks for digging into this Gordian knot - I wondered if there was any more official news coming out?

On a side note, do you know what OS'es are "qualifying" WRT the Vista business upgrade in the action pack. Eric Ligman's blog is suggesting  that XP/Vista "Home" versions don't qualify you to use a Vista business upgrade.

http://blogs.msdn.com/mssmallbiz/archive/2007/02/03/no-windows-xp-home-is-not-a-qualifying-desktop-operating-system-for-the-windows-vista-business-upgrade-or-upgrade-sa-through-volume-licensing.aspx

If that's right, it can only be used to upgrade from XP Pro... You can probably guess the rest!

Thanks,

 Roddy

[last updated 13th Feb 2007 - 10:00 am] Inside Microsoft we have been toiling very hard to provide solutions

I have read all the above posts and am more confused than ever.  I purchased the Action Pack in September 2006, have received ONE update so far, SBS 2003R2.  I previously had 10 XP Pro licenses to install on a PC to demo to customers and run on my inhouse network.  From the above I now understand we get the Vista Business Upgrade to do the same as I resently do with XP Pro.  If I want to be able to setup a Demo PC with Vista Ultimate, I need to purchase an Ultimate Upgrade license to dump on top of the Action Pack Vista Business supplied version.  Is this correct or should I give PCs away and go and obtain a Law Degree so I can try and understand Microsoft's EULA that gets more and more complex each time they release something.

And to echo others, David,I appreciate the work you have put into trying to answer our questions.  MS should be ashamed of themselves for putting people like yourself in a position like this.

Thanks David, read the FAQs but they were almost in legalese.  The idea of purchasing the Action Pack was so I wouldn't need to spend extra money on a PC that will just sit there showing itself off.  Would be able to setup a network to test, improve my skills and be better able to present and support the Microsoft products I was selling my clients.  Now it looks like I have wasted AUD$799 for Action Pack (convert that and see the Premium we pay for living Downunder & you won the One Dayers:-) ) and have to go out and buy even more MS product.  Reimaging the Demo machine is going to be a pain as I will then have to purchase additional imaging software to redo it every 30 days.  It looks like I would have been better off saving my money and downloading 120 & 180 day versions of the software and using that.  Try and do the right thing and I feel like I am bending over to pick up the soap in a jail.

Theres several others who have made comments who appear to be in similar positions to mine but I would like some extra clarification please.

MAPS states that as a partner we can ue the MAPS to run our in house business - both demo machines and also our work PCs. Following this (I have been a MAPS subscriber for 4 years) I have built a SBS 2003 server and 10 CP Pro PCs on a network for our 8 staff. Additionally we use the other 2 licences from time to time to run up demo machines or VM Machines to test cetain scenarios. This has enabled us to sell Microsft Products to our customers with some degree of comfort in our ability to understand the software and also enable us to run our business - using these licences.

At this stage I have no plans to change our OS to vista, after running demo versions, I am less than enamored with it. However we will continue to run demos on machines we build here and also in VM.

My question is can we do this?

Assuming I never use more than 10 licences can I use a mix of XP and Vista?

Can I install clean on a machine I put together from spare parts inorder to test certain motherbopard and hardware options without having to install XP first?

Can I install Vista in a VM eithout having to do an install of XP first?

I would echo others sentiments that every Partner I have talked to and every system builder I have spoken to are very frustrated by the licensing issues around this. I am sure there are some out there who are happy but I for one havent met them. I know of parnters who are not even going to bother trying to sell or support vista for theese very reasons.

I suppose there is nothing new in that for you but if you can pass onto Microsft the pain of a small business serving customers and trying to make a living selling MS products who feels he is being right royally shafted by the very corporation who he is trying to promote. It seems as if the small business owner has been forgotten in Microsofts desire to support the large PC resellers (dell and hp etc)

Thanks for all the work you have done to assist on this website (echoes not shooting messenger sentiment)

cheers

[last updated 7th Mar 2007 - 22:51pm GMT] Inside Microsoft we have been toiling very hard to provide

I've been quick to criticise the Microsoft Action Pack Subscription (MAPS) this year, so I decided it

Hi, I have a question and haven't found the answer neither here nor in the FAQs.

I have the Action Pack, I have installed Office in 1 machine with the serial provided and when I try to install it with the same serial on another machine, there is an activation error, this product is already activated.

The pc I'm trying to install office on, doesn't have windows from action pack. My question is: Does office have to be installed on pcs with action pack windows on?

I want to add one more comment for those thinking about doing the upgrade from the MAPS Vista Business to Vista Ultimate. Microsoft is saying your Ultimate license is good even if you stopped your MAPS subscription. But, if you were to need to reinstall, the only method for this I've seen is to install XP, then upgrade to Vista Business, then upgrade to Vista Ultimate. But, if your MAPS is expired, your MAPS license keys for XP and Vista Business are expired too. So if activation of XP or Business are required for the upgrade to Ultimate to work, then I guess we're just screwed, and that Ultimate license wasn't so permanent afterall.

Hi, good page; I am lost trying to find out about Office 2007 Ultimate. Tooo much information out there?

New Laptop Vista Premium (Toshiba X200- with back up disc).

I installed my Office 2000 (without [Problem] MS Outlook)

Works fine.

Thaks for the site info Dave.

I can Re-install Office 2000 Everytime on all my PC's.

Will Office 2007 re-install if my hard drive fails?

I ask because I have had 2 hard drives fail in the past and lost everything. And I don't want to lose hundreds of pounds of licence too.

Maybe

Clone the Laptop on a New Spare Hard drive first?

Or will registration fail?

Brilliant, thanks David;

That is the info I have been waiting/looking  for and hoped existed.

But how many sites and pages did I look through. Pity PC World Staff are known for misleading customers or I would have asked them a long time ago.

as for

"Yes - you might hit a snag activating, but a call to the centre will fix that too, so no worries"

From the bottom of my heart "thank you".

One final concern; I recieved an office 2007 (about a property) Word? document from Office 2007 doc and my Office 2000 would not open it.

WTF?

Howzat?

Maybe

incompatibility between 2000 and 2007?

(Unless it was one of those weird shared documents one-note or the like.)

Wide Choice of saves in 2007?

Probably.

I'm a bathroom fitter (house rennovator) and ues the PC for quotes and letters and stuff; but like to keep up to speed with some of the usual developments. So thanks for not squashing me.

This takes extra time, but I installed Vista Business 64 bit clean, put in no key code.

I then re-ran setup again from the disk inside of Vista Business 64, and put in the upgrade key code.